. >> cenk: well, that would happen with the debt ceiling but that wouldn't happen with the fiscal cliff, would it, michael? >> well, you never know. i'm not going to take the position other than people i've talked to, but a lot of them said hey you know, i'm worried about this because the economy is very fragile. when you start pulling defense spending and other things out of that economy who really knows? now. >> cenk: no, no, i would take that chance in a second. you're telling me i'm going to continue this bloated defense spending for the rest of time because it might hurt the economy? what about spending on the poor and middle class. nobody is concerned about that when we pull that out. oh that's fine. that wouldn't hurt the economy. that makes no sense. i'm afraid it's a lot of conservative framing and the president has bought into a lot of it, that even the tougher president obama is not that much of a progressive to begin with. >> well, i think the fascinating thing when you watch the program is the extent whatever they believe and wherever that is coming from and whatever the po